dopylitty
9 months ago
>Previous studies have shown that cancer cells can use nanotubes like “tiny tentacles” to slurp up mitochondria from immune cells.
Biology is nuts.
Regarding messing with T-cells I wonder how evolution came up with the current number of mitochondria per cell. Usually with these things there's some kind of push and pull between the benefits of something and the drawbacks. Or sometimes it's just whatever works. I know mitochondria can have some negative impacts on cells sometimes by releasing the byproducts of metabolism (reactive oxygen species) or triggering programmed cell death.
derefr
9 months ago
Dunno about mitochondria as a cell feature specifically. But there exists a similar constraint on the total size of the DNA in the cell nucleus (and therefore the ability of a species to survive polyploid mutations that double-or-more the amount of DNA per cell); and I believe we do (think that we) understand the cause of that one.
This polyploidy constraint only exists for animal cells, not for plant cells. Plants can — and frequently do! — get as polyploid as they want; but animals have a ceiling.
And that implies that the constraint has something to do with one of the main differences between plant and animal cells: namely, the fact that animal cells — specifically, blood cells — must move and flow along channels composed of other cells; while plant cells are fixed in place by their stiff cellulose membranes, with only fluids and tissues flowing.
The problem animal cells have with polyploidy, is seemingly that it makes their cells physically larger — and in so doing, causes biological architectural assumptions like "blood cells can travel through narrow capillaries to deliver oxygen to cells within extremity tissues" to just fail to hold. The capillaries, when composed of larger cells, are narrower; and the blood cells flowing through, composed of larger cells, won't fit.
(Evolution could in theory resolve this single problem by just scaling all features up in size. But that causes far more problems than it solves: the square-cube law requires huge changes to things like muscles and metabolism to keep up with increased size, if it's even possible; and some organs/tissues just require to be a certain size to function — like the nephrons of the kidneys — such that these instead need to stay the same size, evolving distinct adaptations to handle the increased size of the cells that travel to/through them.)
shagie
9 months ago
The fun part is scaling the other way... for tiny animals.
https://www.science.org/content/article/scienceshot-amoeba-s...
> You can't shrink down to the size of an amoeba without losing parts of yourself. That's the lesson one researcher is taking away from a microscopic analysis of the fairy wasp (Megaphragma mymaripenne), which at a mere 200 micrometers in length is one of the world's smallest animals (shown compared to a paramecium and amoeba above). When the scientist compared the neurons of adult and pupae fairy wasps, he discovered that more than 95% of adult neurons lack a nucleus.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S14678...
> The smallest insects are comparable in size to unicellular organisms. Thus, their size affects their structure not only at the organ level, but also at the cellular level. Here we report the first finding of animals with an almost entirely anucleate nervous system. Adults of the smallest flying insects of the parasitic wasp genus Megaphragma (Hymenoptera: Trichogrammatidae) have only 339–372 nuclei in the central nervous system, i.e., their ganglia, including the brain, consist almost exclusively of processes of neurons. In contrast, their pupae have ganglia more typical of other insects, with about 7400 nuclei in the central nervous system. During the final phases of pupal development, most neuronal cell bodies lyse. As adults, these insects have many fewer nucleated neurons, a small number of cell bodies in different stages of lysis, and about 7000 anucleate cells. Although most neurons lack nuclei, these insects exhibit many important behaviors, including flight and searching for hosts.
And the Wikipedia article for the species - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaphragma_mymaripenne
In particular:
> Researchers believe the wasp can survive without nuclei because of its short lifespan; the proteins manufactured during the pupal stage last the animal long enough to complete its life journey.
derefr
9 months ago
Interesting, but not surprising — DNA, and the cellular nucleus itself, aren't truly required to make our cells "go". (At least over the span of a few days.)
That is, after all, what radiation poisoning is: a complete destruction of your DNA in your cells, while the cells themselves (attempt to) continue to function. And they do! For some number of days. And that's without any of our evolutionary ancestors ever having been under evolutionary pressure to live without DNA (as far as we know.)
IIRC, cell death from radiation poisoning follows a bathtub curve.
• There's firstly a lot of immediate cell death from apoptosis — probably due damaged DNA starting to do something that looks like cancer, and autolyse safeguards activating in response. This is what a radiation "burn" is.
• But then, after that, everything's actually fine for a while. You're just sitting there for a few days, operating normally — despite the majority of your cells now having massive holes shot through their DNA, with any attempt to unzip that DNA to copy it failing.
After that few days, you get massive waves of cell death — the part of radiation poisoning that actually kills you. This likely arrives, due to cells experiencing various inputs that they see as triggers to attempt some kind of state-transition (whether a minor one, between e.g. glucose vs ketone metabolism; or a major one, e.g. into mitosis.) And doing that requires flipping some epigenetic methylation switches to start producing different proteins — which requires the DNA be un-rolled and re-rolled. The cell tries it; it fails; and there's no "error handling" for the case of "you started a state transition but can't connect to the blueprint database", so the cell just "deadlocks" in a volatile state — e.g. one where metabolism is shut down, so purine waste builds up until the cell lyses for chemical reasons.
So it's not too surprising that an organism could evolve to just intentionally not trigger such cellular state-transitions — likely no longer expressing any of the state-transition "machinery" at all. Such an organism would get quite far with their cells just "doing the thing they were programmed to do", without a nucleus. Even cellular metabolism would continue!
There'd just be nowhere to get "replacement parts" for proteins as the original proteins break down or get oxidized by some radical — thus the lifespan limit.
Also, something not mentioned in what you linked, but which seems like an obvious corollary: I would guess that such organisms would likely be "metabolically fragile." I.e., they likely have dropped anything like adrenaline signalling, as the whole point of that is to get cells to state-transition. So they'll be a bit like a person taking alpha-blockers, who gets winded extremely easily because the drugs are preventing their cells from "gearing up." For this organism, there are no other gears to switch to. The organism is a fixie.
shagie
9 months ago
> IIRC, cell death from radiation poisoning follows a bathtub curve.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lia_radiological_accident (this one is safe)
https://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Publications/PDF/Pub1660web-81... (this is NSFL beyond a certain point)
> On a cold day of 2 December 2001, three inhabitants of Lia (later designated as Patients 1-DN, 2-MG and 3-MB) drove their truck approximately 45–50 km east of Lia to collect firewood. At around 18:00, they found two containers — metallic, cylindrical objects — lying on a forest path. Around them, the snow had curiously thawed within a radius of approximately 1 m, and the wet soil was steaming. All three individuals stated that the two, rather heavy, cylindrical objects (8–10 kg, 10 cm × 15 cm) were found by chance while carrying out their usual task of collecting firewood.
> One of the three men (Patient 3-MB) picked up one of the cylindrical objects and, finding that it was hot, dropped it immediately. They planned to place the gathered wood in their truck the next morning, and because it was getting dark, they decided to spend the night in the forest, using the hot objects they had discovered as personal heaters.
Section 6 on page 36 is where it gets NSFL. It only gets worse as you continue going through the timeline. There are pictures - they are not for the weak of stomach.
Section 4 is neat from the engineering perspective... "how do you move something that is radioactive enough to melt the snow around it?"
tempestn
9 months ago
Jesus, that's rather awful. Guess these guys had never heard of radiation. Seems incredible, but I have no idea what the media was like in Georgia 20 years ago (or now, for that matter).
sliken
9 months ago
Deinococcus radiodurans is amazingly radiation resistant. Saw a recent update that a single protein was identified that's part of the radiation resistance. When transferred to e.coli it made 40x more radiation resistant.
rolisz
9 months ago
From listening to Michael Levin, he describes how in newts you can multiply the DNA of kidney cells (or some tubules around there). The cells become larger, so they adapt by forming the same size of tubule with fewer cells. If you keep duplicating the DNA, at some point a single cell is enough to form the tubule, which it does by bending around.
cyberax
9 months ago
> blood cells can travel through narrow capillaries to deliver oxygen to cells within extremity tissues
Mammalian red blood cells do not have DNA or mitochondria. They lose them during the maturation process in the bone marrow.
But apparently this might just be one of the evolution's blind turns. Birds have even faster metabolism with higher oxygen requirements, and their red blood cells have nucleus.
derefr
9 months ago
When I say "blood cells", I mean "all blood cells", not specifically "red blood cells." Anywhere your blood plasma flows, all types of blood cells are carried along with it.
As such, to prevent infarction, every capillary in your body must be at least wide enough, in its narrowest state, to still accommodate the passage of the largest blood cell type the body produces, in its largest state. (Which, for us humans, is probably something like "a neutrophil that is bloated from just having consumed a large bacterium.")
hollerith
9 months ago
The neutrophils and macrophages don't reliably know to exit the bloodstream when they're bloated?
derefr
9 months ago
Even if they did, they still might have ended up catching and eating the bacterium right at your fingertip. (Heck, that's not even an edge-case — fingertips and other extremeties served by the tiniest of bloodflow channels, get wounded and infected pretty often!)
Think of it like: what would civic street sizing regulations look like, if fire trucks — already the longest thing most residential streets need to accommodate — had to rapidly reconfigure and redeploy into an even longer shape, while sitting there on the street, to do their job; and then were stuck in this state until they made it back to the depot?
hollerith
9 months ago
I see. Thanks.
Vecr
9 months ago
I think derefr might be talking about the cells that form the walls of the capillaries being bigger, so you can't really fit them in the places you need them, and if you tried they'd be too narrow.
Except replace "you" with evolution and delete "tried".
wnevets
9 months ago
> Regarding messing with T-cells I wonder how evolution came up with the current number of mitochondria per cell.
An over active immune is generally a bad thing for the host. Maybe a higher number increases auto immune disease?
devmor
9 months ago
Not just a bad thing - one of the worst possible things. That's how you get chronic inflammation.
golergka
9 months ago
Could it be just amount of energy available to the organism? Modern humans are in completely unique position relative to all history of life on Earth, having access to as much food (and energy) as we want, and having a widespread problem of eating too much. Evolution didn't have any chance to catch up with this reality.
ceedan
9 months ago
> Regarding messing with T-cells I wonder how evolution came up with the current number of mitochondria per cell.
Cells can increase their number of mitochondria in response to things (mitochondrial biogenesis). I don't know anything about how that works out in the immune system, but have read about it related to fat cells and exercise.
This was also my first thought, and it seems like "giving them extra batteries" accomplishes the same outcome
kurthr
9 months ago
I really appreciate the commentary here on HN. The headline was awful enough, but the quotes, really let me know the level of horror movie aesthetic there is in the commentary supposedly about biology.
Thanks, NewAtlas, but it's just not the mixed metaphor I'm looking for.
agumonkey
9 months ago
> Biology is nuts.
for this particular case I 100% agree. I grew up to accept a wide range of complexity at the cell level, but this blew through the roof.
ben_w
9 months ago
> I wonder how evolution came up with the current number of mitochondria per cell
One of my probably-wrong ideas that I can't usefully ask* is if chronic fatigue/post-acute infection syndromes may be due to insufficient mitochondria for whatever reason.
* if I ask StackExchange, I'll probably phrase it wrong enough to have it closed; if I ask an LLM then it will probably make something up because if the answer exists at all it is probably behind a paywall, and even if it isn't they do that 10-20% of them time anyway.
wizzwizz4
9 months ago
Closure on a Stack Exchange site isn't supposed to be permanent: it just means "this question isn't answerable (by us) yet". Maybe try, and see what happens?
Log_out_
9 months ago
imagine feeding cancer anti mitochondria