The Quest to Build a Telescope on the Moon

85 pointsposted 7 hours ago
by pseudolus

46 Comments

snickerbockers

4 hours ago

I'm pretty skeptical, as a general rule if something has never been done on earth before you're not going to do it in space. Not that I think this is impossible, but nobody even has autonomous mining and construction abilities on earth, and they're going to do that on the moon with an extremely limited ability to perform manual maintenance (I'm sure they have some sort of remote manually-operated drone in mind but again, nobody's ever even done that on earth and they're going to do it in space).

TFA also left out that it's not only going to be a PoC for autonomous mining and manufacturing, but also autonomous refining. When the Toyota corporation built my car they didn't start with unrefined steel ore. I don't even know how they're going to do that in a vacuum where there's no fires and no convection.

jerjerjer

2 hours ago

I'm fairly sure it has not been done on earth because labor is simply cheaper, not because it's technologically impossible.

avmich

2 hours ago

The point here I think is that we should try doing autonomous operations on Earth first not because they are cheaper - they are not - but because it's cheaper to try them on Earth than on the Moon. When we have these tests successful on Earth, we can send the systems to the Moon.

But I'm sure this is being done.

abecedarius

3 hours ago

Earth seems a much hairier environment. Air means weather, water is notoriously corrosive, and random wildlife and microorganisms are hair squared. And initially nobody's going to care about preserving the wilderness. It is true we mostly don't have to worry about meteors and hard radiation, and the local temperature range is smaller.

There were some design studies of lunar resources and their extraction in the 70s, iirc using solar furnaces. I think I read about this in https://space.nss.org/colonies-in-space-by-t-a-heppenheimer/ almost that long ago.

The novelty and distance are a challenge but maybe less of one than the problems for autonomy on Earth?

mglz

3 hours ago

> Earth seems a much hairier environment.

Absolutely not. In space you have to dela with things like radiation, extreme temperatures, or cold welding of joints. Energy supply can be a big issue depending on your environment. On the moon you have to deal with extremely abrasive dust.

The most critical issue in space is how difficult it is to fix things: If you can get a human there, they will be constrained by airlocks and space suits. In most cases it will be impossible to get anybody there and you need to construct 100% reliable or self-repairing machines. This is extremely difficult.

abecedarius

an hour ago

Automation is especially challenged by richly varying or adversarial conditions. The moon has much less of both than the Earth. I already agreed that the particular conditions include new problems; in fact I already listed your first two.

BTW spacesuits could probably be much better for repair work; they seem like another area where NASA has stagnated.

ajuc

3 hours ago

On Earth you need to compete against other people doing the same. So you design on the edge of performance to extract the last few percents of efficiency to compete on price against all the other people doing the same thing. Which means the machines are complicated, use rare materials and require a lot of maintenance.

On the Moon you can do the simplest thing that works and if it works at 10% efficiency and breaks after 1 year - so be it, if it's enough time to get resources to make a new one.

Basically space exploration will have a lot more in common with industrial revolution than with overengineered spacematerial NASA stuff.

If we have to make the tractors 10x bigger to have the same power and output, and to use disposable steel cables instead of hydraulics, and to make them disposable after 2 years instead of lubricating them to last 20 years - that's all fine if it means it can work with lunar materials only.

mc32

3 hours ago

Probably budgets are different as well. Why automate something you can do cheaper with operators? We may be able to automate things on earth but at a prohibitive price with respect to competitors. On the moon your competitors would have the same limitations —ie you’ll just have to pay up to get it to work.

russdill

an hour ago

The moon is much more homogeneous. A kilo of regolith is a kilo of regolith. You don't need to find ore.

martinclayton

an hour ago

There was an interesting Fraser Cain YT vid a couple of weeks back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcR6gs0Up6k

Interview with Gerard van Belle, director or the Lowell Observatory.

The topic was space/lunar optical interferometers. It's easier to do this on the Moon than in space, as there's no formation flying. He's got a "menu" of projects from a few/small unit telescopes right up to lunar manufacturing like this.

BurningFrog

25 minutes ago

Let's say this works, and they paint a lot of metal lines that form workable antennas on the moon surface.

How do you aim that thing at a specific point in the sky?

jandrese

8 minutes ago

Probably like Arecibo, by moving the collector around in relative to the reflector material. To be honest though aiming the mirror is way down their list of problems to solve to make this work. They basically want to create several brand new industries in an inhospitable environment with little to no payoff. It is hard to see a path to success in any reasonable timeframe.

CmdrLoskene

8 minutes ago

It's called phased array. Pretty mature tech now.

jmclnx

5 hours ago

That would be great if that can happen, plus I hope the can build a Radio Telescope on the Moon with it.

That should avoid all the Radio Interference that plagues Earth Based Radio Telescopes.

zabzonk

3 hours ago

until the moonbases need moon-orbiting comms satellites?

avmich

2 hours ago

True. The reason could be that the Earth interference is worse and less controllable.

irunmyownemail

4 hours ago

I don't know about radio telescopes but it does sound like a good platform, no atmosphere, no magnetosphere, etc. Is it just me or does this sounds like a more viable goal for the next 20 years, than Mars.

HumblyTossed

an hour ago

> a small startup called Lunar Resources

Ah yes, the 'ole investor pump and dump. Get a bunch of people excited enough to give you millions, make enough to retire and then just disappear in a whiff.

SubiculumCode

3 hours ago

Why would a moon telescope be desirable over a satellite telescope?

dagw

3 hours ago

FTA: "Unlike telescopes such as the Hubble and the James Webb, which are made from mirrors and lenses, FarView would comprise a hundred thousand metal antennas made on-site by autonomous robots. It would cover a Baltimore-size swath of the moon."

They want to build a radio telescope, not a simple optical telescope.

SubiculumCode

3 hours ago

Thanks. Still, this doesn't answer my question about why build it on the moon and not in space.

netcraft

3 hours ago

the size. An optical telescope is limited by the size of the mirror which needs to be one continuous surface (though not necessarily smooth for instance the JWT but I digress), but a radio telescope doesnt, it can be many individual collectors that can be joined together. This enables it to be much larger so it can collect more signal, and the radio waves are much longer so it needs to be much larger. In an extreme example we have used many different radio telescopes together with very precise timing to produce the images of the black holes at the center of M87 and the milky way.

But it requires those different clusters of collectors to be stationary - so while you could probably build a swarm of satellites, they would have to stay in very precise distances from each other over time which would be considerably more difficult than planting them on a surface.

Also, a big shield like the moon blocking out radio interference coming from the earth is desirable.

IANAA, corrections to my understandings welcome

itishappy

3 hours ago

I'd flip your comment about optical surfaces: they need to be smooth, not continuous, and smoothness is actually not required either! The requirement is a consistent phase relationship, which allows the signals to add together nicely via interference. Rays coming from same direction take the same path to the detector and interfere constructively, while rays coming from different directions tend to cancel.

For optical frequencies, the phase is difficult to measure directly, so we instead polish the surfaces down to a fraction of the wavelength of light (so that it all has the same phase). For radio telescope, the frequency is a lot lower, and we actually can measure the phase directly, so we can make our sensors crazy shapes and adjust it by adding delay. If you can change the individual delays (say, via software) you can change how they interfere and therefore change the sensitive direction for your telescope. This is how phased arrays function.

ambicapter

2 hours ago

Why is it difficult to measure the phase directly for optical wavelength as opposed to radio? Is it purely because the shift is smaller?

itishappy

2 hours ago

It's really fast. Visible frequencies are in the THz to PHz range, while radio frequencies are in the kHz. Modern electronics are fast enough to sample the latter but not the former.

netcraft

2 hours ago

sorry, yeah, thats a much better way of saying it and my smooth vs continuous was just confusing

itishappy

2 hours ago

Your comment was great! I'm not trying to correct you so much as adding additional context.

HumblyTossed

an hour ago

So, wouldn't it still be easier to build a radio telescope from orbiting satellites than on the Moon?

fatbird

2 hours ago

they would have to stay in very precise distances from each other over time

Is this necessary, or do they simply need to precisely distinguish their relative position? My understanding of the JWT's not-perfectly-smooth lens is that the ability to measure (and correct for) its distortions vastly simplified the construction, and I naively think the same principle could be used in a swarm of satellites.

avmich

2 hours ago

I guess local resources are easier to use locally, rather than launching to orbit first? You also have a firm base to mount the antenna, and the process of mounting could be arguably easier.

BurningFrog

2 hours ago

They're planning to build this telescope on the Moon, by mining Moon rocks.

In space, there are no rocks to mine, so you're have to launch all the material to space, which is wildly impractical/expensive.

itishappy

3 hours ago

Easier to build it where the materials are than try to launch a city-sized radio telescope.

tekla

3 hours ago

I think humans currently have a hard time deploying a 20km by 20km object in space.

jessriedel

3 hours ago

It’s easier to deploy in the weightless environment of orbit than on the moon with gravity. Consistent with this, the largest off-Earth structure ever built (the ISS) is in orbit, not on a heavenly body.

itishappy

2 hours ago

Sure, but it's even easier to not have to worry about deploying at all. The largest structures we've built were built in-situ.

avmich

2 hours ago

Can't believe you don't see the other reasons why ISS is on orbit.

echelon

3 hours ago

To be fair, we also have this problem on the moon.

tekla

3 hours ago

I feel that a 20km wide telescope may have a hard time fitting in a fairing.

sorenKaram

2 hours ago

imagine a roller coaster on the moon...

sorenKaram

2 hours ago

A roller coaster could actually be a good way to move things around. With lower gravity than earth, and initial thrust could take a payload a predetermined distance effectively.

postalcoder

5 hours ago

articles like this make me wish I could be reading it on a magazine

s0ss

4 hours ago

That’s available! I miss the tactile experience myself. Hmmmm…

admissionsguy

4 hours ago

In 2022, I bought a yearly subscription of the paper version of Scientific American in an attempt to recreate the childhood feeling of reading it. I am glad I did but I only received six out of 12 issues, in two packets of three. Plus it has become highly political, so I won't be doing it again.