jamiek88
13 hours ago
Wow this paper was fascinating.
Multiple Neanderthal groups in Europe geographically fairly close, on the brink of extinction, yet no interbreeding for 50,000 years.
The stories that pop into my mind!
rightbyte
13 hours ago
"Fairly close", as in, "somewhere else in France, which in the year of 45000 BC, is mainly forest"?
If I read the map correctly.
usrnm
11 hours ago
Our ancestors and Neanderthal ancestors for that matter came there all the way from Africa. It was definitely doable at the time
kuhewa
11 hours ago
Yes several weeks. But no contact is a little surprising for fifty generations, let alone fifty thousand years.
rightbyte
10 hours ago
Hmm .. ye thinking about it, it is kinda strange. Dunno how long you need to roam around until you see some other tribe by chance. But certainly not thousands of years?
escapecharacter
12 hours ago
one day we’ll find the first incel cave painting. What wonders the ancient world holds!
shermantanktop
12 hours ago
Grog kill mammoth with bare hand, but girls like tool-making Chad. Not fair!
fsckboy
13 hours ago
it doesn't say that. too few individual remains in too few locations have been found to understand whether the groups had been living near each other for 50,000 years or what their social structures were at all. It would make sense for a species near extinction to have small population clusters migrating and not bumping into each other. They do contrast this with what is known of early modern human genomes in the same areas which do appear to be more mixed, but why wouldn't examples of a newly successful expanding population appear different from remnants of an old population dying out?
so what they found is not at odds with what you are suggesting, but there are other explanations, and not much data
kuhewa
9 hours ago
> It would make sense for a species near extinction to have small population clusters migrating and not bumping into each other
What evidence do you suggest supports this for 50k years?
The group Thorin was from may have been close to extinction when he died, but when genetic isolation started they were 50k years away from being that close to extinction. It seems remarkable based on what we know of hunter gathers or even animal population structure and movement, that there would be no mixing for that long.
fsckboy
8 hours ago
>What evidence do you suggest supports this for 50k years?
there is no evidence that they were near to each other for 50K years, only that their genomes diverged 50k years ago which was the last time they were near each other.
At the separate-times-and-places that they died in "France", the recent migrants may only have arrived in the last few months, having spent the previous 50K years over in that other far away place, and died only somewhat near each other a decade apart
the mixed genome of early modern humans and the lack of mixing of Neanderthals is a separate piece of evidence, and it may point to Neanderthals not being as sexy-social, but that's just a "may".
kuhewa
7 hours ago
But the other contemporary lineages were mixing more than Thorin, and relatedness broadly correlates with geographic proximity [1]. But the contemporary later lineages in the area split off from samples as far as from Siberia and the Caucasus than to Thorin, as this paper demonstrates.
It isn't out of the question that groups could have moved quite a bit since there is evidence of turnover in either Caucasus or Western Europe later on, but I am not sure coming from somewhere else solves the puzzle. Existing evidence suggests that the MRCA of known late Neanderthals including those predating Thorin was in Europe [2].
So Thorin's lineage could have traveled from somewhere without other hominids and beelined for this site ten years prior, but it is not very parsimonious considering he was in a layer with the same PNII style artifacts for thousands of years before and after him? However, the PNII artifacts don't appear to be rooted in the previous ones of the region so perhaps there was an older exotic origin.
[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/nature26151 [2] https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/sciadv.aaw5873
mkoubaa
13 hours ago
My first thought was very disturbing, that they were bred by humans as pets.
datameta
13 hours ago
We would see the heavy intermixture in one of the groups in that case. In addition, if one group was in homo sapiens captivity, then it is overwhelmingly likely that the other group would be found during those 50 thousand years (considering our propensity for migration).
danielbln
13 hours ago
Or slaves.
inglor_cz
13 hours ago
You don't really need slaves in a hunter and gatherer society (no agriculture, no construction, no mining = no backbreaking work that free people are loath to do), and you don't really have the institutions to keep them from running away.
As far as our observations of Stone Age people go, if they catch someone, they either kill them or make them a permanent member of the group.
brink
12 hours ago
Masters have bred with slaves since the beginning of history. Abraham and Hagar, for example.
optimalsolver
13 hours ago
Neapets
dangitman
13 hours ago
[dead]
euroderf
12 hours ago
> The stories that pop into my mind!
Clan of the Cave Bear ?
dyauspitr
13 hours ago
Probably enslaved by humans and kept from interbreeding. Alternatively, very strong tribal culture that prevented intermixing like in the tribes in Papua New Guinea.
rightbyte
13 hours ago
I don't think slavery made sense for nomadic people. Also, 'slave' is a quite advanced abstract concept for a time when humans could barely speak with eachother.
PlattypusRex
12 hours ago
I'm confused by this, humans already had well-developed and complex language well before we started moving out of Africa into Europe.
underlipton
12 hours ago
Relatively high divergence of language across a relatively small geographic area? How often, exactly, are you interacting with people outside your family group? Outside your local group of family groups? Even factoring in nomadism.
biorach
13 hours ago
> a time when humans could barely speak with eachother.
That's a pretty wild claim
user
12 hours ago