What Is a Particle? (2020)

103 pointsposted 8 hours ago
by sblank

75 Comments

AlbertCory

8 hours ago

I'm reading "The Big Picture" (Sean Carroll) right now.

I'd love to have a real physicist explain this, but:

When we think of what a particle IS, we often think as though it were dirt, or a billiard ball, or something. As though there were some other substance of which it's made. At least I do.

But the definition is as low as you can go. It's hard to wrap your head around that. Unless you're trained to do so, I guess.

elbasti

5 minutes ago

This might sound tautological but a particle is, well, a thing that behaves like a particle.

Those behaviors are something like:

- it has momentum - it's state is uniquely defined by a position in space and a velocity

What's not a particle? A wave (well, until 1900 or so ...).

Sort of like asking "what is a number?"

A number is a thing that obeys certain rules. (You can add them; there's an `identity `, for every number there's a number which if you add together gives zero, etc).

That allows things like `(3 + 5i)` to be a number, for example.

divs1210

5 hours ago

Particle spin explained:

Imagine a ball that’s rotating,

Except it’s not a ball, and

It’s not rotating.

(popular particle physics meme)

From what I understand of QFT, the Universe is made of fields of different types, and a “fundamental particle” is just an excitation (wave) in the corresponding field.

For example, a photon is a wave in the universal electromagnetic field, A charm quark is a wave in the universal charm quark field, etc.

I’m not a trained physicist, so I might be wildly wrong.

binary132

4 hours ago

I get it but I still think these sorts of concepts are also just another level of mathematical abstraction that isn’t necessarily “really what it is” any more than a rotating ball or a math equation or any of the other ideas are “really what it is”

elashri

7 hours ago

> we often think as though it were dirt, or a billiard ball, or something

The problem lies that it is hard to imagine something that does have zero dimensions. You can get the example of ant walking into 2D and it is unaware of third dimension to explain we are have something similar for space-time 4D (although not the same picture exactly as time is different from spatial dimensions). But we don't have an idea how to approximate a mental picture of what a zero dimension could be. So you have something that does not occupy a volume in space (Talking strictly about elementary particles here) in the classical sense.

This does not mean they are abstract concept. According to QFT -Quantum field theory- you would think (by training) of particles are excitations or quanta of their respective fields. Fields are there always (vacuum is just filled with fields) and particle appears when they are excited (more complex processes occurs). So you would think of each particle as a manifestation of a quantum field that permeates the universe. What is interesting (and probably confusing to most people) is that these fields are not zero-dimensional, instead, they exist everywhere in space and time. But the quanta (particles themselves) are considered point-like with no spatial extension.

In practice physicists will think about particles properties (i.e charge, mass, interactions, spin) ..etc instead of what this particle actually is from that point of view. This is often for practical reasons. You are a working physicist and you learned from your training that you shut up and calculate (or implement if you are doing experimental particle physics as you spend most of your time coding) by this stage.

xanderlewis

5 hours ago

> The problem lies that it is hard to imagine something that does have zero dimensions.

Do you really think so? It’s not hard to picture the real number line, with the point zero (or any other single point) distinguished. Sure — if you draw it in the standard schematic way you have to give it some area, but it still seems quite intuitive that it’s ‘zero-dimensional’. Especially if you play around with converging sequences and open sets and stuff; you quickly develop intuition for what it means to be a point rather than something higher dimensional.

lisper

5 hours ago

Richard Feynman gave what I consider to be the best possible answer to questions like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1lL-hXO27Q

aaa_aaa

5 hours ago

At first I was impressed with that video. Then I felt he does not have an answer and unnecessarily gets edgy with it, because question is valid.

johndhi

39 minutes ago

Hmm I think he's merely explaining what physics is and is not. Physics isn't really answering "why" questions, at least not ones with infinite scope.

AlbertCory

3 hours ago

I just watched it. I don't think he's edgy.

You can't explain it in terms of anything else, which was sorta my original point. Maybe he could have been more touchy-feely in his answer, but that wasn't his nature.

lisper

5 hours ago

> he does not have an answer

Well, yeah. That's the whole point.

__MatrixMan__

an hour ago

I've only got a physics minor, so hardly an expert, but I felt like quantum mechanics got a lot easier once I started thinking of a particle as merely a situation which has some probability of causing a state change in a detector of some kind.

danbruc

7 hours ago

I mean I can not speak for you, but I do not think that the problem necessarily is that people think of them as made from some stuff, I think what causes the most trouble is the desire to visualize particles.

The trouble is that an electron is an electron and it is nothing like anything you have ever seen in your macroscopic classical world. It shares some aspects with billiard balls and some with water waves but it is not like either. And it does not switch between being a billiard ball and a water wave, it always is the same thing, it always is an electron.

It just happens that in certain situations the billiard ball properties are more apparent and in others the water wave properties and in yet other situations neither of the two analogies will help. I think that is what trips people really up, they want to visualize their electron as one thing they know, as something they have an intuition for, but no such thing exists.

And electrons being electrons also means that they are not excitations in quantum fields. Those fields are mathematical models that describe the behaviour of electrons, they are not the electrons. Certainly not in the very direct sense of nature is just mathematics because I can differentiate, integrate, and square fields at will but I can not do this to electrons. And even the less direct interpretation, there are real entities in the universe that behave exactly like our mathematical fields, does not seem likely, what would the gauge symmetries mean?

criddell

7 hours ago

> And electrons being electrons also means that they are not excitations in quantum fields

You’re going against the dominant interpretation of QFT here, aren’t you?

danbruc

5 hours ago

I have no idea whether or not most physicist think that there are actually quantum fields in the universe. The Navier–Stokes equations provide a good description of milk mixing into my coffee, but should I therefore conclude that my coffee mug is filled with density and velocity fields and that what coffee really is, is a region in spacetime with a nonzero value of the coffee density field?

Quantum fields have gauge symmetries which means that they are a redundant description, i.e. any given physical situation is represented by an entire equivalence class of field configurations which makes me highly suspicious of there being real quantum fields. Quantum fields are a nice mathematical tool but I do not think we have any good reasons to think they are real, but I am not a physicist and I am certainly in dangerous half-knowledge territory here.

I have been wondering for years whether this might actually be a non-issue, could the universe secretly have fixed a gauge and just ran with it? Or would this somehow be inconsistent?

pgotibojgg

4 hours ago

Do you think photons are real?

Because according to QFT they only exist because of the gauge symmetries. Photons are the solution to the redundant symmetries. Remove those redundant symmetries and you also need to remove the photons.

Universe "fixing a gauge" means no photons and no electromagnetic field, because the electromagnetic field IS the gauge symmetry.

binary132

4 hours ago

I think this is why “shut up and calculate” is popular

User23

3 hours ago

Or as Newton more eloquently put it hypothesis non fingo.

auntienomen

5 hours ago

Yep. Also, ignoring all the ways in which an electron isn't an electron. Electrons can be created and destroyed, and they are both indistinguishable and exchangeable. We can't assign identity to them, thanks to their Fermi statistics. They're just methods of explaining clicks in a detector.

I worked in particle physics for years and never once saw an electron. :-)

binary132

4 hours ago

Joke: “birds aren’t real”

Woke: “electrons aren’t real”

at_a_remove

an hour ago

It's a useful fiction, but the map is not the territory. This sounds blithe but ... it is as close as you will get to the truth.

I only got the bachelors' version of physics, though I did take some grad classes, so here is what I will tell you:

The human mind learns from experience and it thinks of things in terms of the past experiences it has had. We are big assemblages which exist in a narrow range of temperatures (think in terms of Kelvin). Our experience is classical, in the Newtonian sense: we move at not a particularly notable fraction of c, we are too warm to note the strangenesses which happen below, say, twenty or four or a thousandth of a Kelvin (superfluids and BECs are out), we are too cold to have a great internal experience of plasma, leaving us to be creatures of solid and liquid, with a sort of inferred understanding of gas. We are too large to feel the quantum realm, in the sense that the uncertainty principle is not obvious to us from what we have felt.

So, we must make do with abstractions, with fictions, with approximations. Conscious that we are the epitome of the six blind men trying to understand the elephant through touch alone, we try to break our understanding, to search for flaws in our inferences. Yet this does not grant us true experience when we run across, say, the electron. We try to think of it like a billiard ball, but we can say that a billiard ball is this wide, yet we are fairly sure at this time that the electron has no radius, no diameter, that it might as well be a geometric point. Every time we try to measure, we can only establish a smaller and smaller upper bound for the confounded thing's radius. That's not like our lives at all!

The reality of this electron is that if we get it going fast enough, it stops getting much faster no matter how hard we smack it. That's not like our reality. If we try to pin down where it is, the more we do it, the harder it is to figure out how fast and in what direction it moves. And as we work to ascertain the velocity (and therefore momentum), we lose sense of this bit of weirdness' position.

You eventually have to develop an understanding based not on experience at all.

Perhaps this was unique to me, but the first time I understood integration in calculus, I had a brief moment of dizziness as I apprehended this new thing. You know how you are working a math problem and you have a good idea of what the answer is already, a sense of what the magnitude and direction might be? I had ground my way through vector and tensor calculus, and had been working a problem in gravitation and relativity class when I sensed what the resulting tensor would look like, the shape of it, in the sense that I would know if my figures were way off. I nearly fell off the chair, my head spun so.

If you care to, you can do this for a particle.

scotty79

3 hours ago

Particle is a cloudy, fuzzy thing that can fly and wobble through space. It can be more sharp or more fuzzy and when it overlaps with another fuzzy particle object they might exchange a neat portion of momentum, angular momentum and energy and violently reshape becoming sharper or fuzzier (that's the wave function collapse and expansion) then they go again on their separate merry ways.

Sometimes when particles meet or even spontaneously they can split or merge altering other parts of their nature (unrelated momentum, energy and angular momentum). This happens for example when neutron decays into proton and electron.

Sometimes they get stuck together because of electromagnetic force and they resonate in interesting harmonies and travel together. That's atoms. Interestingly when they are resonating in those harmonies they become quite fussy about amounts of energy they prefer to exchange and they do it only in a very specific quanta.

And there's a class of particles called quarks that travel together all the time as they are always tightly bound with each other and can never get free despite possessing incredible amounts of energy they continuously exchange. That's nucelus.

We really don't like this image because fuzziness is actually two dimensional in every point of our already 4 dimensional space-time and described by complex numbers so we prefer to focus on those brief moments when particles interact since if we have a lot of particles that are bound together to form measurement apparatus they are so sharp that the interaction they participate in squash other particles nearly to a point and we can declare that the measure particle collapsed to have some momentum, or location, or spin described by a single vector instead of a cloud. It neatly turns out that the square of complex number fuzziness describes the probability that a fuzzy particle will interact with a sharp one (one of those bound together in measurement apparatus) with a specific outcome.

bbor

5 hours ago

I’m not a physicist, but as an arrogant philosopher of science: isn’t it just field excitation? Like, every particle looks like a circle bouncing around a 2D piece of paper, but if you look reeaaaaally closely it’s just a localized 3D spike of energy in a usually 2D field of energy? So it’s made of the field/paper itself.

I must be under-thinking this, but that’s what’s worked pretty convincingly for me.

deanCommie

7 hours ago

The same is true about the terms "waves" and "fields" when it comes to quantum mechanics.

They're analogies. The concepts need names, but I think they do more harm than good because people then start with a mental model of a membrane or a surface - something they have experience seeing waves in. And then after 1 or 2 steps where the analogy helps, it breaks down, and people start being confused.

Of course the alternative isn't any better. If they had named it a "Wazoo function" and a "Quantum Flarg" everyone would've just kept asking "OK but what IS a Wazoo? What IS a Flarg" and not been satisfied with a "Yeah, it's a fundamental own thing".

Feynman, of course, has a pretty definitive response on the difficulty of this problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp4dpeJVDxs

ww520

7 hours ago

That's why calling Higgs Boson the God particle is not quite right. It's the Higgs field that gives mass to the other particles, not the Boson. A Higgs Boson is just an excitation of the Higgs field; it doesn't give mass to other particles. In fact it's the Higgs field modifying the other fields causing their excitations (particles) to slow down when passing each other, thus gaining masses.

jophj

6 hours ago

it was in fact called the "Goddamn Particle" originally, referring to how difficult it was to detect it. The name was changed later to "God Particle" for publishing reasons.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/God_particle

bbor

6 hours ago

The line between whimsy and intellectual negligence seems blurry, in this case… how many people have been tricked by bad-faith gurus using this?

Thanks for sharing, TIL and it’s fascinating.

ItCouldBeWorse

7 hours ago

So, its all gravity, if you turn the sock inside out? Just taking different colors and shapes?

ww520

3 hours ago

It’s more like Higgs field gives mass to other particles whose masses warp spacetime that gives gravity.

Jabrov

7 hours ago

What do you mean? How do you reach that conclusion? I wasn’t aware there was a connection with gravity

scotty79

3 hours ago

Actually it doesn't seem to be that simple. Higgs Boson seems to contribute mainly to masses of leptons (mostly electrons) and bosons W and Z. And that influence goes to zero at high energies of the measures system making W and Z weightless and merging electrostatic and weak interactions into a singular electroweak interaction.

Quarks get most of their mass from QCD with very minor contribution from Higgs Boson. And nobody has any idea where the mass of neutrinos comes from.

It also has no influence on photons and gluons.

Higgs seems to be very peculiar and not very universal mechanism. I wonder if one of the potential future approaches won't do away with Highs Boson (together with virtual particles) as artifacts of specific math approach and interpretation without any physical manifestation.

Higgs was detected, sure, but it was detected through an interpretation of the data through the best available mathematical model which some postulate might contain some purely mathematical constructions along the way to the ultimate real world result.

Biologist123

6 hours ago

I feel a curious mix of excitement and disconcerted to discover humans don’t really understand what matter is.

Reading the article, I understood so little of it. And I guess it’s because so much of the language is just words chosen through some sort of consensus to represent an abstract idea itself composed of such words-idea-representations which I’ve never encountered before.

akira2501

6 hours ago

We understand matter perfectly well. Look at the size and scope of the engineering marvels that have been constructed on the surface of this planet and in our low orbit. It's astonishing.

What we don't understand is the fundamental structure of that matter or of our Universe. I personally feel that the people ostensibly "in charge" of this effort are a little chagrined at their decades of inability to produce not only a cohesive result but even a reasonable intermediate explanation that they intentionally couch these problems in the most arcane and impenetrable language available to them.

In any case, you shouldn't feel discontent for humanity, as we've simply discovered all the easy problems, cleverly worked out all the average problems, and now all we're left with is the intractably hard ones. It's very likely that a different type of effort we haven't engaged in yet will be necessary to make progress.

interroboink

6 hours ago

I think there's a useful distinction to be made between "we understand it" and "we can make use of it." Certainly the latter is true, as you describe in your examples. I don't know that it implies the former, though.

I mean heck, even something as mundane as concrete is still the subject of active research as to the chemical reactions and complexities involved.

I guess it's more a spectrum of understanding than a yes/no situation.

For myself, I find it exciting to keep discovering how little we understand, despite our abilities. We seem to be barely a step removed from alchemy, from some points of view.

akira2501

6 hours ago

I think the distinction is more "we understand it" and "we can explain it." Understanding doesn't generally imply totality of comprehension.

Going the other way, you most likely cannot explain why your body or your brain works, yet, here we are, using and understanding them just fine.

Which leads to what I was trying to get at. Perhaps our tentative understandings and our means of receiving them are what gets in the way of deeper comprehension.

tambourine_man

5 hours ago

> yet, here we are, using and understanding them just fine.

I think we’re failing miserably precisely because we don’t.

akira2501

5 hours ago

I personally don't think perfection is actually achievable, so I'm completely unwilling to accept your definition of our present state as "failing miserably." That's a rather miserable point of view and I prefer to have and encourage hope.

gosub100

6 hours ago

There are about 16 particles in the standard model. We've only mastered the electron, proton, photon, and have dabbled in using neutrons and neutrinos. Imagine the possibilities if we some day are able to use all the remaining particles?

interroboink

6 hours ago

For some definition of "mastered" (:

If I recall correctly, the we can't really solve the equations for anything more complex than a helium atom (or is it hydrogen?). That's not to say there isn't useful work we can do, numerical approximations, etc. But things do get astoundingly complex very quickly, even with the "mastered" bits.

khazhoux

8 hours ago

I'm honestly surprised that more people don't go mad in certain fields. If I ponder for 10 minutes the inexplicability of the universe's existence, or the vastness of space, my mind starts to breaks down.

fracus

6 hours ago

Constantly trying to resolve an incomplete abstraction. They are trying to reverse engineer the Universe. I can usually read half way through these articles before I'm completely lost in the abstractions.

seiferteric

6 hours ago

Starting with the axiom that what I am experiencing is actually representative of reality to begin with.

scotty79

3 hours ago

It's just a puzzle and should be taken as such.

khazhoux

2 hours ago

The universe is a puzzle?

api

6 hours ago

The impression this article and many other things like it leaves me with is that we are struggling to get language and an abstractions out of our way.

We have to use them to talk about things and work with them, but they all “leak.”

michaelsbradley

6 hours ago

   When I consider your heavens,
   the work of your fingers,
   the moon and the stars,
   which you have set in place,
   what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
   human beings that you care for them?
   You have made them a little lower than the angels
   and crowned them with glory and honor.
   You made them rulers over the works of your hands;
   you put everything under their feet:
   all flocks and herds,
   and the animals of the wild,
   the birds in the sky,
   and the fish in the sea,
   all that swim the paths of the seas.
– Psalm 8:3-8

khazhoux

3 hours ago

The answer of "the universe was created by a creator" is no more satisfying. It claims to answer everything, by answering nothing (since "a creator always existed" is axiomatic).

gpsx

7 hours ago

I have another definition, or at least this is how I think of it. I’m not sure many people would buy into it. In the standard model, the fermions are particles, like the electrons, quarks, neutrinos. Electroweak, strong force, gravity are fields. This means the photon is not a particle, but just a field excitation. I know people can think of fermions as fields, I just think of them as particles.

skzv

7 hours ago

Aren't you describing quantum field theory (QFT)?

Anyway, what exactly is a field besides a mathematical object? What is it made of?

gpsx

2 hours ago

I did study quantum field theory and I have a hard time viewing a fermion as a continuous field, whereas a gauge field I do view as a continuous field. I view a fermion as a true point particle, kind of like it is in a lattice. The fermion still has a wave function of course. It is very different from the wave function of a gauge field. The wave function of an electric field is a wave function over field configurations. The fermion wave function is a wave function of fermion spins. I don't think this is an unreasonable view, but I am not trying to force it on anyone else.

arcbyte

7 hours ago

Checkout energywavetheory.com. It's essential the Aether, but really makes you think.

gigatexal

7 hours ago

tangentially: is it consensus at this point that the proton decays -- it just does so on a really large timescale?

elashri

7 hours ago

No it would be very hard to actually have a consensus on proton decay. If it decays then according to the measurements (or the limits on the lack of the measurement) lifetime of such decay will be more than the universe age (Even without all the puzzle about Hubble constant tension and age of universe measurement disagreements). It was predicted first time by SU(5) theory and many other theories since then but the experiments rules out some of them (including original SU(5)) [1]

I would be personally interested in proton decay as it could be indirect indication for magnetic monopoles [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay?useskin=vector#Pr...

[2] https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.52...

gigatexal

7 hours ago

thank you! -- I meant more that is it consensus that those that know or would need to know think it should/does even if it's not been observed or proven to needfully do so (or disproven, if possible) but I get your point.

Why are magnetic monopoles interesting to you? I've seen some articles on them but I can't still wrap my head around how they'd work.

scotty79

3 hours ago

This article contains a very neat description of what is energy, momentum and spin and why they there. Energy is just a quantity that's preserved when shifting through time, momentum is a quantity preserved by shifting through space. And spin is a quantity preserved by rotation in space-time.

General relativity treats energy and momentum jointly so I guess basically energy-momentum is a quantity preserved in space-time translations and spin is a quantity preserved in space-time rotations. (in flat space-time, I think?)

I guess that's why those Poincare symmetries are rarely mentioned when talking about particles. They seem to come more from sheer geometry of space-time than anything else. Particle physicists are mainly interested in all other symmetries (because they were harder to figure out). It also must be bad feeling that while you are trying pull gravity into your framework, more than half of the symmetries that the objects you spent your career observing obey, come from general relativity not from your framework.

graycat

4 hours ago

Issues:

(1) With Itself:

Consider Young's double slit experiment: So, have plane with two slits and some distance away a parallel plane with detectors. (A) Several times, shoot a photon at the slit. Observe that the detection locations form parallel lines, i.e., fringes. (B) Cover one slit, repeat, and observe that the detection locations from a smooth hill without fringes.

So, from (A) we conclude that the something about the photon went through both slits and interacted with itself to form the fringes, the ones we didn't see from (B).

Q. Between the two planes, where was the energy?

(2) Mass and Charge

Set aside (1) with its photons and two planes.

Now one at a time shoot electrons, i.e., with not just energy but also mass and charge. And shoot the electrons at a beam splitter, i.e., a plane, partially transparent to the electrons, and at 45 degrees to the path of the electrons.

Some electrons pass through the plane with no change in direction and some get deflected 90 degrees.

On the paths after the plane, have some very sensitive detectors for mass and charge. These detectors are distant enough that what they do cannot affect the electron, i.e., the electron does not know about the detectors.

Q. What do the detectors read? For each of the two paths, whole mass and charge, half, or something else?

scotty79

2 hours ago

You can't detect without affecting.

My idea for resolving this is that electron is never a point-like particle. It's always a cloud, just larger or smaller. When it's detected it gets reshaped to be narrower. Mass, energy, momentum and such are a quantities ascribed to the whole cloud and exchanged only on the moment of interaction.

Think about diffraction. Photon or electron that passes through a small hole had it's moment messed up proportionally. It becomes large again.

Interesting question is where's the gravity in all of this. There are various ideas how to match quantum uncertainty to shape of space-time.

graycat

2 hours ago

> You can't detect without affecting.

"These detectors are distant enough that what they do cannot affect the electron, i.e., the electron does not know about the detectors."

We detect gravitational waves without "affecting".

The electron mass and charge send out signals. Have the detectors sufficiently far away that they can't affect the particle yet. Get the detection and then know where the particle was and its mass and charge then. Have the particle reflected by some mirrors and then know the current path of the particle and its mass and charge, all without affecting the particle.

atemerev

7 hours ago

A particle is a node in the universal interaction graph.

“Space”, however, is a derivative attribute emerging as the “distance” between particles in the graph; there is no “space”, only metrics.

Reality does not exist between measurements/interactions; the outcome is calculated on demand.

kayo_20211030

8 hours ago

A particle is a thing you can "look" at, and say "that's a particle". It is whatever one says it is. They're not exactly discovered, they're invented. Fundamental in this context is not so much a word as it is an analogy.

And, don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean particles don't exist. They do. But, a particle is whatever we say it is.

ithkuil

7 hours ago

"Things are named before they are understood." -- Matt Strassler

prng2021

7 hours ago

We're not asking questions about human constructs like what is moral or what is the ideal form of government. We're trying to understand what the most fundamental building block of reality is, which is something objective. Something independent of whether of not people ever existed.

So no, countless people around the world aren't wasting their lives researching particles when the answer is simply, it's whatever we say it is.

woopsn

5 hours ago

What can we see? Vapor trails, patterns burned into a plate, etc. The evidence of some "thing" slowing down, perhaps, but really the environment that slowed it down necessarily changing irreversibly. Irreversible effects cannot be arbitrarily small (apparently). We never see a particle, only effects such as these -- if we did see anything else, well, we couldn't possibly remember. Particles are an attempt to explain/theorize evidence that is fundamentally observational.

kayo_20211030

7 hours ago

Did you take the time to read the original piece? Even the smart people can't agree.

What gives you the faith that a "particle" is not a human construct? What on earth does "fundamental" even mean except being the bottom turtle we can see on the particular mountain of turtles at which we're looking.

"Countless"(?) people around the world are not researching particles. They're doing particle physics as they understand "particles". That's how it should be and particles are whatever they say they are. In that field, no measure means no reality. *Unless*, of course, you have faith in some platonic reality.

Positive materialists will disagree.

prng2021

5 hours ago

When you say particles are whatever we say they are, I assume you believe particles are subjective. I'm saying particles are objective, like a "wavelength" as opposed to subjective, like "morals".

If you are saying even objective things are whatever we say they are, then this is a useless discussion. Obviously every word is defined with other words and all words are human creations. So yea in that sense, literally everything we know of is whatever we say it is. That's a pointless statement to make in response to this article or really ever.

khazhoux

7 hours ago

I'll go even further and point out that in 2003, it was proven that particles are not, in fact, the friends we made along the way.

kayo_20211030

7 hours ago

Do expand. What happened in 2023?

sfink

5 hours ago

Yeah, I don't get that, because it seems to me that the friends you make along the way are mathematically indistinguishable from particles being real and having properties. It's a distinction without a difference.

Or at least, I'm interpreting "the friends you make along the way" as the sum total of the effects of a particle on the surrounding world. Saying "the particle doesn't exist, but it has effects X, Y, and Z" is the same as "the particle exists and has effects X, Y, and Z". If a distinction is not observable, then it's meaningless to quibble over whether it's "real" or not.

(Which all just proves that my interpretation isn't the one you were using....)

fragmede

6 hours ago

discovery vs invention is a question in mathematics as well. trying to say they're invented isn't clever, it's just a trick of language, like how gravity is merely a theory. particles are theorized to exist via theoretical physics and math, and then tested for experimentally. or as the saying goes, all models are wrong, some are useful.

kayo_20211030

6 hours ago

I can't find the reference at the moment. But, I think it was about the "creation" of the quark. (I'll find it eventually). Either way, a search for reality, no matter how far we've progressed thus far, is either a search for a platonic reality, or an experimental reality. The former is "discovery" and the latter is "invention". It really doesn't matter. I don't think, right now, we're quite smart enough to pry into the mind of the universe, so we'll keep "inventing" things until we actually approach "discovery" asymptotically. Maybe we'll get there, but we've never been closer :-)

geye1234

5 hours ago

It's both discovery and experiment (but not invention). Forms are real, but not in the way Plato thought. He thought they existed in some empyrean realm. In reality, they exist in objects themselves. We discover what a thing's form is by experimenting with (or on) it. Aristotle was largely right.

The big philosophical problem with much of this is that people assume that the smallest things are the most fundamental. So people think that stuff, whatever that stuff is, is fundamentally made up of much smaller stuff, and that stuff is fundamentally made of yet smaller stuff, and so the smaller you get, the more fundamental you get. And so (they think) if you want to work out what is really going on at any layer of reality, you need to figure out what the smallest possible things are.

Yet this is ultimately a philosophical posit -- it's not empirically-informed. There's no good reason for thinking it.

To be clear, none of this is about physicists doing physics. It's about the philosophy that many people bring into, and therefore take away from, these kinds of discussions.