not_your_vase
a day ago
That's not much of weighing in. "Not everyone likes it, and it's ok"
Pre-reform Linus 1.0 had his own flaws, but at least had a clear opinion on things, be it good or bad.
entropicdrifter
a day ago
"People have even been talking about the Rust integration being a failure … We've been doing this for a couple of years now so it's way too early to even say that, but I also think that even if it were to become a failure – and I don't think it will – that's how you learn," he said.
"So I see the whole Rust thing as positive, even if the arguments are not necessarily always [so]."
IDK, that seems pretty clear to me. He thinks that it's a good thing to try regardless of the outcome because it's generating good technical discussion and unsettling overly-settled assumptions. He does also seem to think that it hasn't failed and won't fail. Mostly he seems surprised by the sheer religiosity of the arguments that crop up.
So, he's not taking sides, but he doesn't regret the decision to attempt to integrate Rust into the kernel.
not_your_vase
21 hours ago
You might take it as a clear opinion, but I read it as he is just enjoying the show.
Rust-in-kernel project is now years old, it is about time to take a stance. IMO he would actually weigh in with a clear opinion if he would say something like "Rust code goes in, if it improves the kernel! Everybody get out, it's already merged" or "So far Rust brought only more drama in the kernel, show me the code finally or get out!".
But this "meh, I couldn't care less what happens" answer is on one hand disappointing, and on the other hand isn't unexpected, unfortunately.
chipdart
11 hours ago
> You might take it as a clear opinion, but I read it as he is just enjoying the show.
I think this is the sort of unhelpful emotional comment that justifies Linus' position. Arguments need to stand on solid technical ground, but the emotional and almost religious fervor some less-technically inclined of some proponents is unhelpful and detrimental to make the case.
> Rust-in-kernel project is now years old, it is about time to take a stance (...)
You see, this is the kind of emotional drama that should stay way outside the whole debate.
You're not arguing technical merits of tradeoffs (which there are, and important ones). You're arguing for an authority figure to force-feed your personal choice in spite of its technical merits, and you frame the only scenario where your option isn't pushed as an irrational outburst that shields your personal choice from any criticism.
The Linux kernel project has been a huge success in a big part because the discussions on its progress stayed mainly on a technical ground, and calls were made in spite of emotional outbursts or attachments to technical choices. In line with that principle, Rust is still an exploratory technology used in proofs of concept,and the conclusions so far were clearly not decisive. That's perfectly fine. Don't you agree?
pjmlp
8 hours ago
Well, in what concerns Android downstream, Rust-in-kernel is a reality, Google would like upstream to join the party, but it doesn't matter if they don't.
latexr
21 hours ago
> But this "meh, I couldn't care less what happens"
I disagree with that interpretation. To me it reads as “the arguments are silly and unproductive. So far Rust looks positive to me but it’s early to say for sure”. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
And honestly, I hope Linus ignores criticism like yours¹. I hope that after the “reform” he feels happier and more adjusted and that he has a renewed love in doing good over being efficient. Software ultimately exists to serve people, so we’d all do well to put humanity first.
¹ Though I don’t mean to single you out.
tssva
a day ago
I think it is pretty clear from this interview that Linus has no intention to get involved as some Rust developers had hoped. Rust kernel developers will have to sink or swim on their own. And Linus seems ok with either outcome.
chipdart
11 hours ago
> I think it is pretty clear from this interview that Linus has no intention to get involved as some Rust developers had hoped.
I think so too. From some comments in this discussion, it seems some Rust enthusiasts are mainly interested in sidestepping any discussion on the real world output, technical merits and tradeoffs of using Rust in kernel work, and were instead eager to have an authority figure dictate adoption to further push the bandwagon. Marketing and self-promotion are important, but without a solid technical argument what's the point really?
fargle
19 hours ago
bingo. i think that is the best read on the situation.
bravetraveler
17 hours ago
His opinion seems pretty clear, just not the one you want. It'll continue or not without his forcing
That's just reality
paperplatter
a day ago
Seems clear that he considers Rust a good thing. And if he hasn't gone back on his C++ opinions, that would suggest he likes Rust way more than C++, right?