The Baltic has seen some incredible amounts of abuse over the years. It doesn't stop at the massive amounts of conventional munitions like bombs and naval mines, nor even at the chemical weapons. The Swedish nuclear weapons program dumped several hundred barrels of intermediate-level radioactive waste in the Baltic during the 50's and 60's.
Then there's the environmental problems, where the Baltic has it all, really. There are severe eutrophication and oxygen depletion issues, but of course it doesn't end there. It's just severely polluted with everything from heavy metals like mercury and cadmium to persistent organic pollutants like polychlorinated biphenyls (PCB's), various other dioxins and dioxin-likes, DDT... the list goes on. The Swedish food agency recommends that children, adolescents, women who breastfeed or are or intend to become pregnant should not eat fish from the Baltic more than twice a year.
My father was involved in this, he didn’t have a choice and it was dangerous work as even then most of the munitions were unstable. Shells etc sweated tnt which got absorbed into their skin. He hated it. They also had to contend with the rolling North Sea whilst dumping live ammunition overboard.
I can't imagine having to deal with sweating explosives on a boat that was rolling on the sea. The nausea and headaches must've been epic.
Years ago I worked on land seismic crews drilling shot-holes for geophysical exploration. We drilled patterns of shallow shot-holes and loaded each hole with 1/4-1/2 pound (0.11-0.23 kg) of dynamite. We carried paper-wrapped sticks and a brass knife to cut the one pound (0.45 kg) sticks to size. There was a lot of bare-handed handling of those sticks and it was July in the desert southwest of the 4 Corners region. They sweated a lot. They had to be packed in to each shot-hole so some poor slob always had to be the guy with the backpack loaded with 35-40 pounds (15.9-18.1 kg) of sweating dynamite sticks and blasting caps. I had that duty more times than I can remember.
Backpacks were nowhere near as padded or utilitarian as those you can get today. This thing had an aluminum (aluminium, LOL) frame with a poly bag and after a few minutes carrying that pack the bearer had absorbed enough nitroglycerine to have a booming headache that was so horrible that you would spend the day trying not to lean your head off of vertical so that you wouldn't get more blood rushing to your skull. It was frigging awful. Worst headaches I have ever had.
On a funny note, those sticks of powder (dynamite) came wrapped in a very smooth, very absorbent brown paper a lot like cardboard without the corrugations. It was super-soft and a lot of guys would raid the powder boxes looking for the paper to use as toilet paper out in the field. They would try to find pieces that weren't soaked in nitro because if you wiped your ass with a nitro-soaked piece you would quickly be reminded of the close connection between your head and your asshole when the headache hit. We called it dyna-wipe.
Fun times.
Every so often in HN comments, one finds pearls like this anecdote. Outside the bubble of usually sterile tech narratives and uniquely, hilariously fascinating. Thanks for that... "dyna-wipe".. made me laugh right out loud.
Also, wouldn't the nitroglycerin that sweated out as you describe have constantly been in danger of spontaneously exploding, even in small quantities?
Thanks for reading. I'm glad you enjoyed it. We have a large group of people with such diverse life and career experiences that I think it adds value to give some real-life color to some of these discussions and the parent comment immediately reminded me of my own experiences.
To answer your question about volatility of the nitroglycerin I'll lean on the safety information that we were given back in the day. We were told that there was minimal danger of explosion from the sweating sticks or the materials that absorbed the nitroglycerin because it required significant energy to initiate an explosion. That energy was to be supplied by the blasting caps. They said we could burn the sticks like firewood without risk of explosion since the nitroglycerin was in a nitro-soaked sawdust matrix wrapped in durable paper. They warned against jumping on the burning sticks or throwing things on the fire if you were trying to build or extinguish the fire though since they might be unstable.
Safe handling meant that we were to keep blasting caps separate from "powder" sticks. In normal road transport that was easy since each had separate locked magazines. Once you're in the field, as in this case, you just carried both together and followed normal safety guidelines to minimize the possibility of an accidental detonation of the primer cap. That meant that you minimized impact on the backpack and the copper jackets of the caps and insured that all the cap wires were twisted (shorted) so stray static electricity wouldn't be an issue. The caps all had a two-wire conductor to the primer which needed to be twisted (shunted or shorted) to protect from stray voltages that could cause the cap to fire. They told us that the cap could fire with less than 0.5V and that in the right atmospheric conditions normal static electricity could pop one so it was critical to make sure all were twisted. Normal procedure was to leave them twisted until you were preparing to fire the charge and then you would connect them to the blaster which supplied the voltage to pop the cap.
The blasting caps had approximately the same energy as a .30 caliber bullet impact so in theory you could shoot a stick of dynamite and cause it to explode.
It's been 40+ years since I worked out there and I still wouldn't trade the experience for anything else. It was foundational experience in field operations that set me up for a long career as a geophysicist.
>We were told that there was minimal danger of explosion from the sweating sticks or the materials that absorbed the nitroglycerin because it required significant energy to initiate an explosion.
Thanks for the detailed reply! And sorry I just answered back now. I hadn't noticed it earlier. As for the above. I assumed that the sticks would be pretty stable unless detonated with something like a blasting cap, but I was referring to the liquid nitroglycerin leaking, or sweating out of them. Do you remember if that liquid was pure nitroglycerin or still diluted enough not to be in danger of just exploding suddenly?
You're welcome.
From what I remember the nitroglycerin was held in a fine sawdust matrix and it would sweat thru the heavy paper on the sticks. Since there was dynawipe in the boxes you likely never had beads of nitro form on the outside of the sticks. When carried in a backpack they would sweat into the pack fabric and then straight into your bloodstream.
I suspect that it would be pure nitroglycerin because I heard from friends that after cutting a stick you could scrape small balls of the goo from your brass powder knife and whack them hard with a ball-peen hammer and they would pop.
We used those small paper-wrapped sticks when we drilled mini-hole programs where the shot-holes were 5' (1.5m) deep or less and could be drilled by one man or a two man crew using jackhammers or Little Beaver type augers depending on near surface conditions. For traditional shot-holes that were 80-100' deep (24.4-30.5m) or more we used 5# (2.27 kg) sticks of dynagel (seismogel?) which was a gelled nitroglycerin that could stand long periods of immersion without degrading. These sticks were plastic tubes that could be screwed together to make a charge of any size and the loader could place sets of empty tubes to space charges inside the shot-hole allowing multiple shots to be taken from a single shot-hole. The blasting caps would be inserted at the top of each charge and the loader would label them from deepest to shallowest so that the shooter, who might not get around for a month or more, could fire them from deepest to shallowest allowing the data from each shot in that shot-hole to be stacked for signal-to-noise improvement.
Isn't the sweat from tnt nitroglycerin?
Yes. Causes your heart rate to skyrocket when it enters the bloodstream or it increases blood pressure. I'm not 100% sure which but it is used as heart medication.
From dynamite, yes, but not from TNT.
Yes my bad. It was nitroglycerin.
I do wonder if a true cleanup is ever possible, worldwide. Think about all the land mines and tiny cluster munitions spread out all over. I feel sad for all the children who will be maimed or killed by these irresponsible and unethical weapons. But I don’t have much hope for being able to comprehensively clear the land of these things.
The war in Ukraine has now gone on for more than two and a half years. At one point The Guardian reported that Ukraine has become the most mined country in the world, with Russia laying down literally millions of mines. In some areas Ukranian forces have uncovered five mines per square meter. The estimate is that using state of the art technology it would take centuries to clear all the mines, and that's not accounting for the fact that Russia is actively in the process of putting down more. Until we reach a more civil level of society, I don't think a true cleanup is possible.
Ukraine wouldn't have been able to stop the Russian invasion without profligate use of land mines and cluster munitions. People at risk of being overrun have to use whatever weapons they can. They don't have the luxury of being able to worry about responsibility or ethics. War is hell.
> The bright-yellow robot is the Norppa 300
norppa is the Suomi word for a seal, for anyone curious
Suomi is a Finnish word for the Finnish language, for anyone curious.
I hope it works. This problem is all over the place.
Close to London lies the Richard Montgomery: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery
One ship with 1400 tonnes of TNT still in it rusting away.
This solution might not be completely automated, but it’s an interesting step in the right direction.
Are this photos AI generated?, because they definitely look like that
Are we looking at the same article? None of the photos look AI-generated to me. Too many small details are correct in too many places.
I realize some AI photos are really damn good, but I don't think it would do so well on the photo of the Norppa 300. And note that the Norppa's track is visible on the bottom left monitor in one of the other photos.
It's the hands in the second picture. I get where op is coming from. The man on the left is pointing in an odd way that makes his hand look distorted.
It looks to me like perspective distortion from an ultra-wide lens. Both distant hands look disproportionately small. Even the right man's head is deformed, with the back larger than the face. There could be too little space in that room, forcing such extreme wide angle.
that was my first impression, but perspective distortion means distortion in all the photo parallel lines. Here only the humans and a small part of the wall near the ponytail are distorted. All lines in the table look strangely right.
It seems like a sort of bubble distortion field was aimed at modify only the arm, face and ear proportions of Mr Mackey for some reason. The ear of the other man may had been altered also, but I could we wrong here.
The man at the left lacks a finger also, but that could be a past accident.
All photos look very post-processed. The real work at the sea and life in a boat does not look like this at all.
I kind of like the idea that it might blow up some bottom-trawling fishing gear. But I suppose it doesn't work that way.
The robot can search and survey, and handle smallish munition.
The rest is up to human divers.
Those are some brave sons of bitches.
I am happy they are getting bombs, munitions, and explosives up.
But it is a bit of a disappointment that The most dangerous items,
most likely to cause the most harm....
Will be left on the seafloor since they are too dangerous to handle¹.
... which.... then means these chemical weapon bombs will pop
now and then and enormous damage will be a likely consequence.
I have no idea if anyone has attempted it but there have been
a fear that terrorist groups could go shopping among the smorgasbord
of deadly shit as a shortcut to acquire potent weapons.
""
> . Chemical weapons, which contain phosgene, arsenic, and sulfur mustard (also known as mustard gas) are too lethal to handle, probably ever, admits Guldin. “You can’t see these gases or smell them,” he says, “and their detonation could blow a ship out of the water, killing a ship’s entire crew in a matter of minutes.” Those weapons will be left untouched.
""
Can they be cleaned up? Yes. Is it economical? Probably not. But, in theory one could bring them up in a sealed box, then incinerate them on the ship. This would require literally building a ship for that one purpose with very specialized equipment and government supervision so not even a single shell walks off. IIRC France and Belgium have successfully disposed of equally corroded gas shells from Zone Rouge.
The first solar panels weren't economical either yet here we are. Going over the investment mountains is always slow and dangerous ,but the descent into the next valley might be close.
Leave a remotely detonated device next to them, clear out the shipping in the area and blow them up?
These are chemical weapons. Just like they're destructive to humans, they're destructive to everything that lives in the sea. If you blow them up remotely you just let everything that was inside loose.
It depends on what is worse, a slow leakage that can poison the life in the immediate vicinity for decades, or a quick explosion that is immediately lethal to life in a large volume but is quickly diluted.
Also, I don't believe that arsenic-containing chemical agents were used in WWI. Lewisite production started in 1918, too late for it to enter the war. And other chemical weapon agents are not persistent polluters.
But if nothing is done, then something like that will happen at some point.
It may be an explosion, or it might leak out over a period of time.
No matter what it will cause major damage, and we wont know that is
has happened until it is pretty much over.
If they discover a bomb like this leaking most dangerous chemicals into the
sea they don't have any way of addressing it I guess.
Slowly leaking out over a period of time is arguably the lesser of possible evils if there is no safe way to dispose of them otherwise. On a long enough timescale water circulation can dilute the effects, the slower it leaks the better. Of course this is worse than being able to take all of it out to begin with, but if that's not an option we have, then that's better than suddenly releasing all of it at once.