The Canary

215 pointsposted 6 days ago
by ebcode

59 Comments

myrmidon

4 days ago

Excellent article.

It is only mentioned in passing, but being 60 years ahead of schedule and 30 billion dollars under projected costs is such a boss move.

Having stories like these better represented in media would help a lot in preventing general apathy and disillusion toward politics/government-- it might even help channel slight patriotism in a very positive way (toward improving infrastructure/society).

In western nations, we have reduced nationalism (and national pride in general) by a LOT for the last generations (especially on the left side of the political spectrum), and I do believe that there is a significant hidden price to pay for this (as society and country).

0xEF

4 days ago

Your comment has given me something to contemplate.

Growing up, I was taught that we (the US) was the greatest country on Earth. You can only imagine my disillusionment upon entering voting-age and adulthood. The cracks in the veneer were starting to show.

Fast forward to the Obama presidency, when Hope was a selling point. By then I had no real faith in the US. I'd experienced the lingering impact of financial destitution, homelessness and addiction, which our country would rather pretend does not exist here. I'd been exposed to things that made it feel like we lived in a society that put more value in appearances than it did substance. The food turned out to be fake. The educations we were getting turned out to be a lie. The idea that one could work hard and succeed was all smoke and mirrors. Our flag was starting to be co-opted by racists and fascists, the early bubblings of the boil-over we are now experiencing. So, it was easy to see why Hope was a marketing pitch.

But these days, I am trying so hard to reclaim whatever love I can for the US. There are good people here trying to do good things, but they so easily get drowned out by the alarm bells and angry shouts, that it is difficult to see or hear them. Even my initial approach to this article was tainted by my experiences, leaving me to assume it was another "feel good" piece about something that should be normalized, but instead is treated like the exception to the cynical rule.

I will try to find more stories like this.

panarky

4 days ago

This article is a particularly relevant example of why there's broad support in the US for gutting the national government, eliminating entire departments, cutting those that remain by large percentages, and replacing the nonpartisan experts who somehow survive the cuts with know-nothings who can pass a test of loyalty and ideological purity.

Who is willing to spend 60 to 90 minutes carefully reading 12,450 words, with technical vocabulary like "longwall mining" and "abutment load", with long sentences that contain multiple clauses?

Who has the sustained attention and intellectual curiosity needed to grasp abstract relationships between ideas and complex, multi-layered concepts, such as the tension between safety and profitability, the inherent incentives of market economies, the power imbalance between workers and owners, and the long-term systemic changes resulting from the well financed campaign to blame government and collective action for systemic market failure?

Very few people have the capacity, attention, interest or stamina to thoughtfully read an article like this and understand exactly why the wealthy mine owners wouldn't fix this problem on their own, why the market couldn't fix this problem, why it required deep expertise from a government worker to fix this problem.

It's far easier to simply parrot the idea that government is the problem, that corporations need less regulation, that tax cuts for the insanely wealthy will magically trickle down to workers, that our many serious problems can be solved by concentrating migrants and homeless in camps, that protesters should be imprisoned or killed, that democratic elections are fraudulent, that only a strongman ruler can fix it.

elevation

4 days ago

> broad support in the US for gutting the national government

I support balancing the federal budget. Since the US government spends roughly twice its revenue, achieving balance would realistically require unprecedented "gutting" of some agencies.

However, I question the idea of "broad support" for such gutting. Regardless of who wins elections, the federal deficit, federal budget, federal employment rolls, federal tax code etc, have only ever increased. Nothing has interrupted this pattern for as long as I've lived.

I don't know of "broad support" for anything except complaining about it.

Gravityloss

4 days ago

And there's a further layer in the onion: the bureau of mines was shut down except this one guy's department. And he said it was actually a good thing.

Removing code is hard, I assume it's also hard with government agencies, but sometimes it's really useful to do.

FredPret

4 days ago

Looking at your country from the outside, both your initial overoptimism and your subsequent disillusionment seem inaccurate.

There's a ton of propaganda both ways; all of it is based on blowing some small fact completely out of proportion.

The US is awesome but no place is perfect.

0xEF

3 days ago

"Your actual experience of existing seems innacurate."

Read that again because that is precisely what you just said to a stranger you know nothing about aside from the bits of information shared on Internet comments...which makes me super curious; who, exactly, awarded you the power to invalidate the experiences of another person simply because they did not match your own? I'd like a word with them.

dvfjsdhgfv

4 days ago

> Growing up, I was taught that we (the US) was the greatest country on Earth. You can only imagine my disillusionment upon entering voting-age and adulthood.

As a side note, your experience is similar to many other adults living in many other countries.

itsoktocry

4 days ago

>I will try to find more stories like this.

No offense, but it sounds like your problem is that you spend too much time "finding stories", and end up cynical and pessimistic about the the country.

But, back in reality, the US is very wealthy, has amazing educational institutions, unlimited opportunity and guess what? Not everyone who waves the flag is a fascist or racist. Some of those people long for the way things were...just like you seem to be doing.

It's not perfect, but the US is still a great place.

lproven

2 days ago

> the US is still a great place.

Laughs hollowly in European

0xEF

3 days ago

[flagged]

myrmidon

4 days ago

Fully agree with your attitude.

Its always easy to fall into cynicism and and its trivial to justify to yourself and others, but in the end, its a shit attitude that is more likely to do harm than any good...

kwhitefoot

4 days ago

Such people should be much more visible in the world:

Frazer Lockhart

Manager, Rocky Flats Project Department of Energy Evergreen, Colorado

https://servicetoamericamedals.org/honorees/frazer-lockhart-...

I think the reduction in national pride in some nations has more to do with it being obvious that many of the people running the country at a high level have no loyalty to the people; that kind of thing trickles down and poisons us all.

peterldowns

4 days ago

You may enjoy the book How Big Things Get Done by Bent Flyvbjerg and Dan Gardner. It details quite a few large-scale projects, mostly those that failed and went way over budget, and tries to come up with a model for why this happens so often. The examples it uses of how to do things well are really exciting — did you know the Empire State building was also built ahead of schedule and under budget?

FredPret

4 days ago

Another book about a civil servant doing great things is “Racing for the bomb” about General Leslie Groves who built the Pentagon and led the Manhattan Project, completing both in record time.

peterldowns

4 days ago

I just finished The Making Of The Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes, and Groves comes across as a very fascinating guy. I'll add this to my bookmarks list, thank you. Any chance you know of a good biography of Henry Stimson?

pessimizer

4 days ago

> In western nations, we have reduced nationalism (and national pride in general) by a LOT for the last generations (especially on the left side of the political spectrum)

We really haven't, we've reduced national jingoism and converted it into identity jingoism, then redefined modernity as a harmonious collection of designated and licensed identities at war with the corruption of evil foreign influences. We've continued or escalated international aggression, to the extent that the fear of or the desire for revenge upon foreigners has become the main issue in politics. It is absolutely mundane now to accuse your neighbor of being the servant of a foreign power.

In western nations, we have reduced or eliminated civics education, which was our only chance to tell people about popular sovereignty, that government springs from their rights and is for their comfort. Now many of them think that their rights have been granted for the government's protection. Nationalism is poison.

myrmidon

4 days ago

> We really haven't, we've reduced national jingoism and converted it into identity jingoism

This is kinda what I mean-- instead of identifying with the nation (freedom & opportunity), a lot of people have latched onto their party instead, and this is an obvious disadvantage for social cohesion (you could even reframe this a bit as freedom vs opportunity, an interesting thought).

I find it curious how your wording implies direction/intention/agency in these changes, which i personally don't believe to exist. Sure, some people owning large media might sit at a longer oar, but in the end we're all just along for the ride and no single person or entity really sits at the helm and controls how culture and society changes (in my view).

edit: I honestly think that education is roughly better than it ever was-- I would not really blame it for this despite some failings (but got no US education personally).

082349872349872

4 days ago

> toward improving infrastructure/society

Having moved someplace where the general attitude seems to me* to be "we don't have a wrong side of the tracks, we're not barbarians after all" I'll vouch that being surrounded by this variety of patriotism is indeed pleasant.

* the indigenous view things differently: my wife (who has wild stories about her youth like being in the same city during the mass shooting) and I were going to an art opening run by the olympic organisation in our capital city, and directly in front of the venue she asked "can we park here? it's such a sketchy neighbourhood"; I wanted to grab her by the shoulders and shake her while yelling "WTF? sketchy? I've been broken down in NWA-era Compton, and this here reads to me as like, maybe, lower middle class?"

Lagniappe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LREf9SXfHBI&t=13s

immibis

4 days ago

I get the opposite impression in Berlin. Nothing that's as dangerous as people seem to think happens actually happens.

I happened to be hanging around sn area where some anarchist activists set on fire on New Year's Eve a few years ago... in the middle of the closed off road far away from other flammable objects, which the fire department only got to once it was already dying down. Yet the reporting and public perception of that event was as if the whole block burned down and you cannot ever go in that area or you will be arsonized. Police presence was ramped up at all following NYEs and fireworks were banned in that particular area, enforced with a police cordon, as if that was supposed to achieve anything. (There were illegal fireworks there anyway)

082349872349872

4 days ago

The german-speaking space is yes world-master in „motzen“ (bellyaching).

[then again, I made my peace with that after learning that „na, und?“ is not only a thing, but has been perfectly cromulent since at least the 1500s]

user

3 days ago

[deleted]

triclops200

4 days ago

I think you might enjoy the book "manufacturing consent," it answers a lot of the hows and whys of stuff like this as well as provides some general thoughts around the phenomenon of patriotism and why it might be on the decline in some groups (though it's actually on the rise, statistically, in other large segments of the US)

thushan

4 days ago

This piece is beautiful.

I hope it gives you the tingles, and color on the people doing the hard work. Michael Lewis knows how to spot colorful characters and frame a thesis of a bigger idea around them. But there's lots of people like this in government, finding ways to nudges to be a "more perfect" version of our country — often exhaustingly facing headwinds to do so.

I'm an acquired YC founder (S11 → Launchpad Toys → Google → Led early LLM efforts there), now serving in federal government at the U.S. Digital Service. It's the White House's technology arm where we bring people from technology and industry for 2 year "tours of duty" and help to modernize our systems and make our digital experiences better (Fixing Healthcare.gov, and recently shipping IRS Direct File are some of success stories).

Your country could use you.

We need experienced technologists across eng/product/design/business – people like YC founders and HN readers here.

Consider taking a look: USDS.gov

tjridesbikes

4 days ago

I've taken an honest look at USDS, but I decided I couldn't afford to work for them, even though I would love to. I live in one of the most expensive cities in the US, and salaries + total comp form USDS are far lower than what I'm earning now, even at a (well-funded, non-ai) non-profit. I'd have to start at salary grade 15, the highest one, to even begin approaching what I earn now.

I'm not even living a life of tech-bro luxury. I've got a mortgage, bills to pay, retirement to save for, groceries, transportation, etc that take a significant plurality of my take-home pay. Sure, my standard of living is a bit higher than average (I have a penchant for expensive bicycles...), but that doesn't add up to the pay cut I'd have to take to work at any salary grade besides the literal highest one.

I would adore working for the government on technology. I work at a non-profit for its social impact, and I can't see myself working in ads, ai, finance, or other place that doesn't contribute to the social good. I wouldn't expect to be paid at FAANG/MAMAA/whatever levels, but something competitive with what I see private companies offering would get me to sign up in (almost) an instant.

Maybe I'm missing something?

shawndrost

4 days ago

Government jobs have a fixed pay grade that isn't changing. It doesn't afford an upper-middle-class life in an expensive city. You may find yourself wanting both, but you can't have them. If you already get that, you're not missing anything!

If you have a deeper question about why the US government chooses this outcome, here is the answer: It is ideologically closer to Mondrian than to other US corporations. This ideology makes it hard to hire for certain higher-wage skills; they have to find workers who will accept a pay cut. (Mondrian's maximum wage ratio -- the wage of the CEO divided by the lowest-paid worker -- is six. Private sector CEOs might get 10x more than Mondrian's CEO; Mondrian's CEO makes ideologically-motivated sacrifices. Something similar is happening for high-skill devs at Mondrian and the USG.) To some degree this ideology is thrust upon the largest entities whose workforces tend to unionize and lobby for similar outcomes; to some degree it is an emergent outcome of principled and political choices by legislators and executives.

Go USG! Such an inspiring organization. I can understand why people are cynical -- it's too much to understand; anything big has lots of ugliness; much of the Rep party has been ideologically opposed to Mondrian; etc -- but I just think it's so beautiful.

immibis

4 days ago

Now start your own company that supplies the USG, and you can have whatever pay scale you like within the amount of money they give you...

vundercind

4 days ago

As someone not in the third trimodal tech pay-hump (I can’t possibly pass the interviews, I’m all used up for the day after 90-120 minutes of far-less-stressful ordinary interviewing) I’d considered it, because the pay cut would be fairly small, I find the mission appealing, and federal government benefits and retirement are really good…

Then I noticed the “term of service” stuff and nope’d out. Without the retirement, it’s a terrible deal even for me.

user

4 days ago

[deleted]

Terr_

4 days ago

> Basically no one came forward on their own: Civil servants appeared to lack the ability to be recognized. [...] Even their nominations feel modest. Never I did this, but we did this. Never look at me, but look at this work!

Now I wonder if I should've looked at a career in government. Something to keep in mind the next time I find that I've somehow become the surviving "maintenance" developer on a project.

Lots of material here, but the two main points I see about stopping mine collapses boil down to:

1. Make mining companies actually install a safe amount of roof-bolts, rather using the new technique in a half-assed way that saves them some money while staying just as deadly as the old way.

2. Stop mining companies from substituting their own unsafe models to justify mining-away columns that are are important for keeping everything up.

_____

> In 2016 — the first year in recorded history that zero underground coal miners were killed by falling roofs — Chris landed in a public spat. He’d seen an article by an economic historian about the history of roof bolts in the journal of Technology and Culture.

> The historian wanted to argue that roof bolts had taken 20 years to reduce fatality rates because it had taken 20 years for the coal mining industry to learn to use them. All by itself, the market had solved this worker safety problem! The government’s role, in his telling, was as a kind of gentle helpmate of industry. “It was kind of amazing,” said Chris. “What actually happened was the regulators were finally empowered to regulate. Regulators needed to be able to enforce. He elevated the role of technology. He minimized the role of regulators.”

motohagiography

4 days ago

these public service awards should be bigger than the oscars. I take a lot of shots at govt because I've seen it from the inside and seen some of the low things the people in it do, but sometimes the other ones solve incredible coordination problems like the ones described.

the way for it to succeed is for projects and people involved to have shorter exits, as professionalizing public service accumulates a lot of dead wood that becomes indifferent to any given mission and success becomes the exception. the current military is a bad example of a bureaucracy, but the idea of a short duration national service would create talent pipelines and mission focus, along with national cohesion.

nxobject

4 days ago

I imagine this is why in certain fields with a regulatory structure people pop in and out of industry - money, sadly, is that recognition, although it is recognition in the end.

motohagiography

4 days ago

one of the best teams I've worked on was in public service with other consultants who were extremely mission focused.

what made it successful was the team related the way special operations relate to regular forces. I'd bet if you went down the list of Sammy nominees, or looked at most accomplishments in public service, they were done by people who succeeded outside the mainline org reporting.

if you look at the way the military uses special forces to achieve objectives, there is probably an analogous model in public service. to some extent it's done in consulting, but there is so much partisan bloat and low-level fiefdom in it that there isn't a coherent operating model.

the 18F program that became the US Digital Service was a task force that had huge impact. there are certain whitehouse initiatives around cybersecurity that worked in a similar way. maybe the opportunity is to create a special operations doctrine for public services, where it codifies how there's a specific way to use that kind of initiative and talent, and when not to.

macrael

4 days ago

Very cool story. The technical bit at the heart of it, that Mark applied stats to determine the safe amount of column supports for ceilings rather than relying on various engineering calculations based on physics that all disagreed, is great. And it's wild that he had the data to collect those stats because of regulators requiring reporting on it, but that that data had sat around un-used for decades waiting for someone to actually turn it into safety.

dredmorbius

3 days ago

Lewis slipped in the fact that this was similar to the situation in baseball. On which he's also written a book.

nxobject

4 days ago

I had brief stints in state and county government doing policy work, and I remember a piece of advice for how you want to do work like Marks': you want to be high enough in goverment that you can make an impact, work with interesting problems in the real world – but not high enough that you get affected by regular changes in elected leadership, with eventually reverberate down the hierarchy. But in public service the compensation for doing good work is really just the ability to do more of that work, without being bothered too much about having to accumulate a fat CV (either in academia or industry).

I'm glad he found his niche, and managed to survive so many administrative rehousings.

ZeroGravitas

4 days ago

It's an interesting story, but I did wonder how much the transition to mountain top removal of coal and away from deep mines contributed.

As the text makes clear the industry was mostly motivated by the cost of roof falls, not the deaths and injuries they caused.

Random AI quote from Google Search: > Surface mining is more cost-effective than underground mining, and accounts for over 60% of coal production in the US.

pm215

4 days ago

The industry was motivated by costs, but the government regulation was motivated by deaths and injuries. And the graph in the article certainly rather suggests that when the government regulated that's when the number of deaths fell...

boxed

4 days ago

There was a pretty sharp drop before too.

snowflakeandrey

4 days ago

I wonder if that's because as regulation is considered and debated, industry incentives start to align as they attempt to show they're "regulating themselves just fine".

boxed

4 days ago

Could be. Could also be partly due to the general decline of the coal industry.

myrmidon

4 days ago

Do you mean contributed in a negative way, because subsurface mining had to compete on cost with strip mines?

From the article it appears to me that the mines still stayed somewhat viable despite the added safety, and were mainly lacking a mechanism (=> the regulator) to have everyone prioritize worker safety sufficiently at first...

jessriedel

4 days ago

The deaths themselves are costly to the org, both because of insurance and because it's terrible for morale.

Stratoscope

4 days ago

This is quite an amazing and touching story. A must-read.

I think the original title is better than the submitted one:

The Canary

user

4 days ago

[deleted]

zavec

4 days ago

Among all the other great things, I found the bit about how cathedrals were built by trial and error really interesting. It had never occurred to me that operating on that timescale you could make changes from one bay to the next based on how the first one was reacting.

mud_dauber

4 days ago

I lost an uncle to black lung in a WV underground mine. One grandfather lost an eye (explosion), the other broke his back.

I’m happy for Chris’s dedication - but this industry needs to die.

kjkjadksj

5 days ago

Too bad the workers are still covered in black dust inside and out

K0balt

4 days ago

Interesting article. Had to read it, trying to figure out why coal miners were in danger of falling off of roofs lol.

Lme

4 days ago

[flagged]

Lme

4 days ago

[flagged]

throwpoaster

4 days ago

“And what I took away from that was that I should be able to make my own decisions about right and wrong, and whatever anyone else thinks doesn’t matter.”

A disturbing statement from a civil servant. Glad it all worked out in the end.

GavinMcG

4 days ago

Very disturbing to have civil servants who were once children with underdeveloped sensibilities.